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Dena

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PostSubject: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 pm

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Jewishness is not a belief, a feeling, a conviction or a lifestyle. It is a state of being - Rabbi Aron Moss

The quote is in reference to a born Jew who considers himself an atheist, married a non-Jew and isn't at all religious. What do you think of the statement? Do you think it applies to converts, just born Jews, both or neither? I'm asking for your opinion, not what you think the author intended.
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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 1:10 am

Dena wrote:


It would probably change less than you imagine. Not believing in the soul or afterlife does not mean that I think we should all do whatever we want to do, however we want to do it and whenever we want to do it. I am not observant of any part of Jewish Law because I'm trying to gain favor with God or get a blessing. Living life according to Judaism is fulfilling enough on it's own. It's a beautiful way to live. And I personally believe if one is observant than one is obligated to live according to Judaism and pass it on to future children.

Life has consequences. The way we live has an affect on us and on others and that doesn't change even for those who do not believe in the existence of the soul. Do you feel the reason to be observant is to make God happy? Is that the only reason you behave the way you do? If I found out tomorrow that God did not exist and we could be absolutely 100% sure, my life would be the same. I would still keep kosher, still observe Shabbat, still go to services, still fast on Yom Kippur and I would still love being Jewish. I don't expect those things to get me any rewards. But I'm happy do do them anyway! Very Happy

Oh maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking me a few questions if I felt being observant is to make Gd happy and my reason for it. Maybe you were making a statement? Sorry Embarassed
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 12:06 pm

Okay, I understand you now. Mostly anyway. I still don't understand the marriage reference but that's okay. You are correct, I did ask you about observance.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 2:29 pm

Ok this is what i am saying, marriage is a choice and so is choosing to be Torah observant, Jewishness etc. You can walk away, work at it, go through emotions, be commited, be unfaithful...how ever you chose to live with Judaism is how strong the relationship you have with Hashem. That relationship is not just central with an individulual but reflects it also on a national level. In the Tanach we have many examples of references between Gd and Isreal in a marriage metaphor (the prophet Hosea is one). I choose to be a Torah observant Noahide. I do not have to follow all the mitzvots that are required from the covenant between the Jewish people and Gd. I can live Jewishness if I want, but to me its only part of the picture. I choose to be committed and go beyond what is expected of me because of my great love and devotion to my Creator. I may not be the Jewish Bride, but I am a member of the wedding party ;-)
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 2:44 pm

We are Jewish on many levels. Jews are observant and not observant. I don't understand the noahide movement and I don't believe it is connected to Judaism.

Are you on a path to Judaism. I am confused about that.




Bee wrote:
Ok this is what i am saying, marriage is a choice and so is choosing to be Torah observant, Jewishness etc. You can walk away, work at it, go through emotions, be commited, be unfaithful...how ever you chose to live with Judaism is how strong the relationship you have with Hashem. That relationship is not just central with an individulual but reflects it also on a national level. In the Tanach we have many examples of references between Gd and Isreal in a marriage metaphor (the prophet Hosea is one). I choose to be a Torah observant Noahide. I do not have to follow all the mitzvots that are required from the covenant between the Jewish people and Gd. I can live Jewishness if I want, but to me its only part of the picture. I choose to be committed and go beyond what is expected of me because of my great love and devotion to my Creator. I may not be the Jewish Bride, but I am a member of the wedding party ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Like I have stated before, I started off last June- July leaving christianity thanks to Rabbi Tovia, wanted nothing more then convert asap. I met with Orthodox Rabbis at a Noahide conference, we went wanting to meet Tovia and never heard of Noachides. We didnt know what to think about that group but they were backed up by the Sanhedrin in Israel, Rabbi's such as Richman from Temple Institute, Lazer Beam Brody, Sutton, Azambra's Greenbaum among, Hollander who is part of the Noahide Court of Law in Israel, to name a few and if Rabbi Tovia Singer was part of it we took an interest. We learned we do not have to convert but still follow Judaism. We still were looking for anyone who would convert us...of course we encountered road blocks. I was in a state of despair because I so wanted to convert. But during this cooling off period we kept on with our studies, took a few classes here and there, and now we are glad for the speed bumps our Rabbi's put out for our benefit. Judaism has countless facets and the road we are on now is a steady one. I am happy where I am, I am finding myself and learning so much. I rather take care of my issues and iron out my bumps so that my
goyim ways do not mix in the pot. I am proud to be Bnei Noach, converting is not as priority as it used to be. That will take its own natural course. There is a bigger picture and purpose to being a Noahide. I know its hard to understand but it's our path right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 4:37 pm

Thats fine Bee and your way is your way but this is a JBC site and Noahides are not on any path to Judaism. It is a movement I am not at all familiar with. I don't believe it is at all attached to Judaism.

We are all here to learn more about Judaism and to move further down our paths of where we are within the Jewish community.




Bee wrote:
Like I have stated before, I started off last June- July leaving christianity thanks to Rabbi Tovia, wanted nothing more then convert asap. I met with Orthodox Rabbis at a Noahide conference, we went wanting to meet Tovia and never heard of Noachides. We didnt know what to think about that group but they were backed up by the Sanhedrin in Israel, Rabbi's such as Richman from Temple Institute, Lazer Beam Brody, Sutton, Azambra's Greenbaum among, Hollander who is part of the Noahide Court of Law in Israel, to name a few and if Rabbi Tovia Singer was part of it we took an interest. We learned we do not have to convert but still follow Judaism. We still were looking for anyone who would convert us...of course we encountered road blocks. I was in a state of despair because I so wanted to convert. But during this cooling off period we kept on with our studies, took a few classes here and there, and now we are glad for the speed bumps our Rabbi's put out for our benefit. Judaism has countless facets and the road we are on now is a steady one. I am happy where I am, I am finding myself and learning so much. I rather take care of my issues and iron out my bumps so that my
goyim ways do not mix in the pot. I am proud to be Bnei Noach, converting is not as priority as it used to be. That will take its own natural course. There is a bigger picture and purpose to being a Noahide. I know its hard to understand but it's our path right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 5:08 pm

Tamar you are entitled to your feelings and if its only for JBC converts or converting website then I will be happy to move along. I am sorry you do not have the whole picture or acurate information about Noahides. The only difference is basically you went through a mikvah and I chose not to at this point until I feel I am ready. I do not have to convert to choose to live Jewish. If its not part of Judaism then why have there been established courts for us by the Sages and now the Nassi Steinsaltz? It is a choice, being a Noahide is Judaism and how observant is also a choice. The written and oral Torah is the core of its existence. I am not going to go through the whole history of the oldest religion or I should say the way of life that is now Judaism. It seems like a social fad or movement, but it is nothing new to Judaism or the history within Judaism. It has gain more attention because the Rebbe Lubavitch and Rabbi Steinsaltz believe that Noahides are essential in ushering the Moshiach. Then again your view may also be determined on your religious observation or congregation you belong to. Like I said I feel we are part of the bigger picture and it may not be easily understood. The majority of Orthodox community members we encounter seem to know and accept us with great love and guidance. Granted a few only heard of Noahides and ask questions about how we live. Shockingly many tell us to stay as Noahides and tell us exactly what I just stated...we are part of a bigger picture and will play an essential role in the future of Israel. I even read in the Tanach our rights to worship in the Temple, if you read the prayers during Pesach you will notice that it mentions the righteous gentiles or non-converts among them and how to treat us. The thing is we are not a religion, but a way of life determined and outlined by the Torah and Talmud.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 5:19 pm

btw..someone who is in process or contemplating conversion is essentially a Noahide. There is no sign that you wear that say's, "prospect". It is a Noahide lifestyle until you fully convert. Some stay and some convert even if it takes 1 month to 12 years...until you convert you are a Noahide. That means you are not obligated to the 613 mitzvots only 77+- (I forget) and Gd forbid you pass away you will not be held accountable for what is not rquired unless you have chosen to take them all upon yourself.
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 5:21 pm

That is not correct. I was never a noahide.

Bee wrote:
btw..someone who is in process or contemplating conversion is essentially a Noahide. There is no sign that you wear that say's, "prospect". It is a Noahide lifestyle until you fully convert. Some stay and some convert even if it takes 1 month to 12 years...until you convert you are a Noahide. That means you are not obligated to the 613 mitzvots only 77+- (I forget) and Gd forbid you pass away you will not be held accountable for what is not rquired unless you have chosen to take them all upon yourself.
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 6:45 pm

Bee wrote:
how ever you chose to live with Judaism is how strong the relationship you have with Hashem.

I'm inclined to say I completely disagree with this idea. But then again my idea of having a relationship with God is obviously much different than yours and it's different than the Orthodox Jews too.

In light of what you have said here I am not sure how the non-existence of a soul changes anything? I would think one should be just as observant regardless of whether or not they have a soul?
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 6:51 pm

tamar wrote:
Thats fine Bee and your way is your way but this is a JBC site and Noahides are not on any path to Judaism. It is a movement I am not at all familiar with. I don't believe it is at all attached to Judaism.

I'm not sure if you are giving your personal opinion? The Noahide movement is somewhat connected to Judaism, especially through Chabad. The Rebbe was pretty big on it I guess. But he's gone now...so...I don't know. I'm not a huge fan. I think it's essentially gatekeeping.

Bee has chosen for the time not to convert but she is welcome here to learn. I would be curious, Bee, why you chose not to convert at this time but only if you want to share.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:02 pm

Noahidism IS Judaism. Noahides are non-Jews who believe in Judaism. They thus accept the authority of the Oral and Written Torah (but like Jewish women, are forbidden to study it except for the parts that pertain to them).

There is a machloket (dispute) in Jewish law as to whether Muslims, non-Trinitarian Christians, and other non-idolators count as Noahides if they only observe the 7 Noahide Laws out of their own sense of morality vs. out of belief that God commanded them.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:07 pm

Its my opinion and the rabbi I worked with said the noahide movement is really not connected with Judaism. It is a way to be keepers of gates that the some movements within orthodoxy have taken on. As to Chabad they have a few ideas that go against traditional judaism such as the Rebbe Schneerson as messiah.

I think having noahides as part of Judaism sets up a 2 tier system of Jews vs the noahides who are not real Jews. We have enough issues with real Jews and those not considered real Jews.

So for me I see it as something outside of Judaism.
Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:
Thats fine Bee and your way is your way but this is a JBC site and Noahides are not on any path to Judaism. It is a movement I am not at all familiar with. I don't believe it is at all attached to Judaism.

I'm not sure if you are giving your personal opinion? The Noahide movement is somewhat connected to Judaism, especially through Chabad. The Rebbe was pretty big on it I guess. But he's gone now...so...I don't know. I'm not a huge fan. I think it's essentially gatekeeping.

Bee has chosen for the time not to convert but she is welcome here to learn. I would be curious, Bee, why you chose not to convert at this time but only if you want to share.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:07 pm

usuario wrote:
Noahidism IS Judaism. Noahides are non-Jews who believe in Judaism. They thus accept the authority of the Oral and Written Torah (but like Jewish women, are forbidden to study it except for the parts that pertain to them).

I have two issues. The first is that these people rarely have any community. They are alone. Secondly, I personally feel like while the Noahide movement probably wasn't intended this way it is now a method of gatekeeping. People are pushed towards being Noahides rather than converting to Judaism. Peoplehood is a HUGE part of Judaism and the Noahides miss that aspect, I think. For those who really truly feel they are Jewish the Noahide thing isn't going to cut it. Period. But that doesn't prevent Rabbis from pushing it anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:11 pm

tamar wrote:
Its my opinion and the rabbi I worked with said the noahide movement is really not connected with Judaism. It is a way to be keepers of gates that the some movements within orthodoxy have taken on. As to Chabad they have a few ideas that go against traditional Judaism such as the Rebbe Schneerson as messiah.

I too think it's a method of gatekeeping but to say it's not connected to Judaism would be incorrect.

The Rebbe is a whole other topic but let's be clear that the entire Lubavitcher world isn't standing around waiting for his return. Wink and Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:12 pm

Before I became Jewish I was a person who had not made a commitment to any religion. I was a seeker. those who have decided to become Jewish are Jewish. I believe those who have undergone ritual conversion in any of the Jewish movements are Jewish.

Being a Noahide does not make you Jewish. Noahides follow only the 7 laws of noah, not the 613 mitzvot. So I am confused as to how a noahide could on any level be seen as Jewish?
usuario wrote:
Noahidism IS Judaism. Noahides are non-Jews who believe in Judaism. They thus accept the authority of the Oral and Written Torah (but like Jewish women, are forbidden to study it except for the parts that pertain to them).

There is a machloket (dispute) in Jewish law as to whether Muslims, non-Trinitarian Christians, and other non-idolators count as Noahides if they only observe the 7 Noahide Laws out of their own sense of morality vs. out of belief that God commanded them.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:14 pm

Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:
Its my opinion and the rabbi I worked with said the noahide movement is really not connected with Judaism. It is a way to be keepers of gates that the some movements within orthodoxy have taken on. As to Chabad they have a few ideas that go against traditional Judaism such as the Rebbe Schneerson as messiah.

I too think it's a method of gatekeeping but to say it's not connected to Judaism would be incorrect.

The Rebbe is a whole other topic but let's be clear that the entire Lubavitcher world isn't standing around waiting for his return. Wink and Smile



Very Happy true they aren't all waiting for his return. I just can't accept that noahides are a part of Judaism. That is my opinion and the opinion of the rabbi I worked with. Its gate keeping.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:29 pm

tamar wrote:
[left]Before I became Jewish I was a person who had not made a commitment to any religion. I was a seeker. those who have decided to become Jewish are Jewish. I believe those who have undergone ritual conversion in any of the Jewish movements are Jewish.

They are not Jewish. I've never heard anyone state they were Jewish. Bee is certainly not claiming to be Jewish. However the Noahide movement is connected to Judaism.

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 7:44 pm

she hasn't said she was Jewish, but the idea that we are were noahides before becoming Jewish is something she has said and there is a strong view coming from her that noahides are part of Judaism.

I just don't accept that. I would speculate that if I asked the Jews at my shul if they knew what a noahide was they would look at me strangely. I think only orthodoxy has a place for noahides.

I believe all have a place in the world to come Jew and gentile.

I made a commitment to Judaism and the Jewish people by becoming Jewish. I worked hard to get to this place.

Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:
[left]Before I became Jewish I was a person who had not made a commitment to any religion. I was a seeker. those who have decided to become Jewish are Jewish. I believe those who have undergone ritual conversion in any of the Jewish movements are Jewish.

They are not Jewish. I've never heard anyone state they were Jewish. Bee is certainly not claiming to be Jewish. However the Noahide movement is connected to Judaism.

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 8:03 pm

Tamar, I understand your point of view that before you converted you were a seeker, Noahides in Talmud are referred to Gd fearers. Again its not a religion but a way of life. I will discuss it later...getting ready for tonight.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 8:22 pm

tamar wrote:
she hasn't said she was Jewish, but the idea that we are were noahides before becoming Jewish is something she has said and there is a strong view coming from her that noahides are part of Judaism.

The Noahide Laws cover a lot of bases. This is probably why Bee would say that those who are considering conversion are all Noahides - because they are already following the Noahide laws.

tamar wrote:
I think only orthodoxy has a place for noahides.

Well that may be true but that isn't the same as it not being connected at all.

tamar wrote:
I made a commitment to Judaism and the Jewish people by becoming Jewish. I worked hard to get to this place.

I'm not sure where you were going with this statement as it pertains to the topic?

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 8:26 pm

I believe if noahides want to be a religion then they need to be seen separately from Judaism. To follow the 7 noahide laws and live that way is a path, but it is not a Jewish path. It should be separate from Judaism and that is just my opinion.

I don't fear G-d, and I am not here to learn about the noahides. I want to be among those on the journey to Judaism or who have become Jewish. I want to learn and grow in being Jewish.

I believe those who are drawn to Judaism should become Jewish and join the Jewish people.

Bee wrote:
Tamar, I understand your point of view that before you converted you were a seeker, Noahides in Talmud are referred to Gd fearers. Again its not a religion but a way of life. I will discuss it later...getting ready for tonight.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 8:58 pm

tamar wrote:

I believe those who are drawn to Judaism should become Jewish and join the Jewish people.

We all have our own time frame. Some of us need very short amounts of time...others need many, many years.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri May 25, 2012 9:08 pm

I agree many take years but to follow Judaism and stay outside of Judaism does not make sense to me. If one wants to follow Jewish law and to be a part of a Jewish community and study and learn I don't understand why folks choose to be a part of a movement that is outside Judaism. But again that is just my opinion.


Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:

I believe those who are drawn to Judaism should become Jewish and join the Jewish people.

We all have our own time frame. Some of us need very short amounts of time...others need many, many years.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sat May 26, 2012 11:22 pm

Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:

I believe those who are drawn to Judaism should become Jewish and join the Jewish people.

We all have our own time frame. Some of us need very short amounts of time...others need many, many years.

I agree very much with this statement. Sorry we went off topic.
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