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Dena

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PostSubject: Speaking of God    Wed May 30, 2012 11:28 am

First topic message reminder :

This topic was mentioned in another forum but probably needs it's own thread.

Quote :
fearing Gd is a whole different topic and a good one to discuss if you are willing to open a thread on it. I am curious to understand how others see Hashem and why just like what Dena wrote about the soul.

So I think this is at least a two part topic.

1. Fearing God ( The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; And now, O Israel, what does the Lord, your God, demand of you? Only to fear the Lord, your God...; You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and cleave to Him and swear by His Name.)

2. Our own personal ideas and understanding of God.
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:28 pm

Oh thank you, Mychal. You've given me a good example of human speculation about God's feeling and his motives. How could human possibly know that God is lonely? How could we know that God is even an essence that feels loneliness? Doesn't this seem like we're just assigning our own human emotions to our God? What do you guys think?
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Sarit

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:46 pm

Well, yes - it seems like we're just assigning our own human emotions to G-d in this case, at least it seems to me, although I understand that my view of G-d is not the only view, and in that sense of words I'll respect every other opinion - we're here to exchange our thoughts, aren't we?

Anyway, when I wrote about the anthropomorphising (is that a correct form of word?? Embarassed ) G-d I had exactly this on my mind: every time we think of G-d in the terms of a humanly conceived emotions/behaviours/acting, we are assigning G-d the anthropomorphic qualities. I'm with Dena on this; I cannot think of G-d in humanly conceived terms - G-d just cannot be compared/put in parallel to humans in that exact way.

Yet I still think that we can connect to G-d, because G-d created us/everything, so we're part of G-d, yet distinctive. I wrote about this dilemma on the previous page. It seems like a paradox (being particular/distinctive and whole/of the same in regard to G-d), but it's not a paradox to me. I think it's the only way I can, for now, untangle/grasp my relation to G-d. I'm glad that I can discuss it with all of you here, meaning that I can learn a lot listening to the plurality of thoughts.
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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:42 am

In the Tanakh we have written examples of Gd having certain emotions. Here is a few:

Gd was pleased with His creation (Gen.) , Gd was sorry He made man (Gen.6:5- 8 ), I am a jealous Gd-He visits the iniquity up to the 4th generations of those that hate Him-He performs loving kindness to thousands of generations of those that love Him and keep His commandments (Exodus 20:5-6) the story of Enoch (Gen.5:24) God is a righteous judge, and God is incensed every day (Psalms 7:12) Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure (Psalms 2:5)
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:26 am

Bee wrote:
In the Tanakh we have written examples of Gd having certain emotions. Here is a few:

Gd was pleased with His creation (Gen.) , Gd was sorry He made man (Gen.6:5- 8 ), I am a jealous Gd-He visits the iniquity up to the 4th generations of those that hate Him-He performs loving kindness to thousands of generations of those that love Him and keep His commandments (Exodus 20:5-6) the story of Enoch (Gen.5:24) God is a righteous judge, and God is incensed every day (Psalms 7:12) Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure (Psalms 2:5)

Bee, I think you may be missing my point? I already stated that the above and other verses like it point to me the Jewish people have always tried to understand God, tried to relate to God and used language to describe our connection to God. It is however, not proof that we really, truly and deeply understand God. It's our struggle understand. To make sense of the world. It's our story, told by us, for us and passed on to us. The fact that Psalms say God is incensed everyday does not spur me to believe that God is indeed incensed every day. The Pslamist perhaps felt like God must be incensed everyday given what he saw around him. Perhaps he felt like God should be incensed everyday. But the Psalmist was a human just like you and I are human. He felt human emotions and then he assigned those human emotions to God because that is what made the most sense to him in the moment. If it makes sense to you that's fine but you're quoting it to me like I haven't seen it. I've read it. I am aware of what it says. I just view it very, very differently.

(and since Psalms is a book of music and poetry I personally don't think it's wise to use it as a theological framework)

Very Happy



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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:32 am

Sarit wrote:
we're here to exchange our thoughts, aren't we?

Exactly.

Sarit wrote:
every time we think of G-d in the terms of a humanly conceived emotions/behaviours/acting, we are assigning G-d the anthropomorphic qualities.

I agree.

Sarit wrote:
Yet I still think that we can connect to G-d, because G-d created us/everything, so we're part of G-d, yet distinctive.

I can agree to an extent. When I hear people comment on being far away from God or wanting to get close to God I often wonder what they mean exactly. I feel that God is in everything so I cannot get away or closer to him. I am always close...I mean, I couldn't get any closer than being a part of him! What I think many people mean is they are searching for a particular emotion. I would say that is especially true for Christians. Of course for others being in nature or helping others in need helps them feel closer to God and I think that's great. I could describe myself the same but it isn't that I'm literally closer to God. It's that I'm connecting to nature or to other human beings and that makes me feel a certain emotion or "cohesion" with the world around me. I have no idea if I'm making any sense here...


Sarit wrote:
I'm glad that I can discuss it with all of you here, meaning that I can learn a lot listening to the plurality of thoughts.

Me too. I'm glad there are others here to discuss it with me. Very Happy


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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:01 am

Dena wrote:
Bee wrote:
In the Tanakh we have written examples of Gd having certain emotions. Here is a few:

Gd was pleased with His creation (Gen.) , Gd was sorry He made man (Gen.6:5- 8 ), I am a jealous Gd-He visits the iniquity up to the 4th generations of those that hate Him-He performs loving kindness to thousands of generations of those that love Him and keep His commandments (Exodus 20:5-6) the story of Enoch (Gen.5:24) God is a righteous judge, and God is incensed every day (Psalms 7:12) Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure (Psalms 2:5)

Bee, I think you may be missing my point? I already stated that the above and other verses like it point to me the Jewish people have always tried to understand God, tried to relate to God and used language to describe our connection to God. It is however, not proof that we really, truly and deeply understand God. It's our struggle understand. To make sense of the world. It's our story, told by us, for us and passed on to us. The fact that Psalms say God is incensed everyday does not spur me to believe that God is indeed incensed every day. The Pslamist perhaps felt like God must be incensed everyday given what he saw around him. Perhaps he felt like God should be incensed everyday. But the Psalmist was a human just like you and I are human. He felt human emotions and then he assigned those human emotions to God because that is what made the most sense to him in the moment. If it makes sense to you that's fine but you're quoting it to me like I haven't seen it. I've read it. I am aware of what it says. I just view it very, very differently.

(and since Psalms is a book of music and poetry I personally don't think it's wise to use it as a theological framework)

Very Happy



Yes you stated your view and I am saying that Gd does have emotions that are described in the Tanakh. The Psalms are written as you know by various people and are poetic in their descriprions on their personal relationship with Hashem and how Hashem intervenes in their lives. It was asked if we are putting our human emtions on Gd so I gave examples of where Hashem expresses feelings and where man expresses feelings.
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:58 am

Dena wrote:

Sarit wrote:
Yet I still think that we can connect to G-d, because G-d created us/everything, so we're part of G-d, yet distinctive.

I can agree to an extent. When I hear people comment on being far away from God or wanting to get close to God I often wonder what they mean exactly. I feel that God is in everything so I cannot get away or closer to him. I am always close...I mean, I couldn't get any closer than being a part of him! What I think many people mean is they are searching for a particular emotion. I would say that is especially true for Christians. Of course for others being in nature or helping others in need helps them feel closer to God and I think that's great. I could describe myself the same but it isn't that I'm literally closer to God. It's that I'm connecting to nature or to other human beings and that makes me feel a certain emotion or "cohesion" with the world around me. I have no idea if I'm making any sense here...


I agree absolutely. I think I've got into the same "trap" by saying that "we", like intentionally, "can" connect to G-d. We are already connected (we are not "connected" exactly, because we are a part of G-d so connection is always-already there, it just is) and yes, I completely understood your point about making the connection in the term of cohesion with others/nature that we interpret like "feeling connected". And it's this cohesion that we interpret like a certain emotion we need so much to feel "connected".

G-d is [always-already here/there/everywhere]. So it's my struggle that is facing me to the challenge of thinking. And yet it is G-d, if you can understand what I'm trying to say.


Last edited by Sarit on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I didn't quote properly...)
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:16 pm

Dena wrote:


I have a very difficult time with imagining God as an essence that willfully makes decisions and cares about us. People find that very surprising but it's true.


I don't find it surprising at all. God hits all of us in different ways. My rabbi wouldn't say the same thing I would about an intercessionary nondual God. To be more specific about what I meant is perhaps Godly intercession as a combination of karma (what you put out you get back, what you need you get but not always how you expect to get it, etc.) and the accessibility of guidance from diverse sources (from within and from the world around us)if we ask for and listen for it. That said, I don't believe in an intercessionary God to the level of, say, a literal parting of the Sea of Reeds or anything absolutely specific like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:23 pm

Bee wrote:


Is this like Pantheism? I believe Gd is incorporeal. There is another side of "fearing" Hashem parallel to being in awe of Him. The Torah is filled with examples like Queen Esther, Mordecai told her if she did not help that Gd will find another way to save the Jewish people and basically it would not be good to be her. It was fear of Hashem that Noah built the ark, Moshe went back to Egypt, Joshua and Caleb, Samson, etc. At Mt. Sinai some people passed out and died with fear and had to be resuscitated after Hashem told them the first two commandments. You cannot have wisdom without the fear of Gd and you cannot have the key to the Torah without it. Its like having the key to the chamber but not to the treasure box.

Technically,it's panentheism. Pantheism means God is everything. Panentheism means God is IN everything. It's really an academic difference, because I can't see how if God was everything God couldn't also be IN everything. The best I understand it is that panentheism has to do with the sense and consciousness of self. In other words, God isn't just everything around you--there is no self as we know it and, instead, God is you, too, simply in a disguised form.
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:29 pm

mikedoyleblogger wrote:


Technically,it's panentheism. Pantheism means God is everything. Panentheism means God is IN everything. It's really an academic difference, because I can't see how if God was everything God couldn't also be IN everything. The best I understand it is that panentheism has to do with the sense and consciousness of self. In other words, God isn't just everything around you--there is no self as we know it and, instead, God is you, too, simply in a disguised form.

I once heard someone say Pantheism is finding God in nature while Panentheism is finding nature in God. I think I've got that right. Don't quote me! Razz


Last edited by Dena on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:54 pm

That sounds about right Very Happy
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of God    Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:59 pm

Dern it, I did mess it up. It's fixed now.
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