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Dena

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PostSubject: When the flame goes out   Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:23 pm

Lighting the Shabbat candles the other night I had some trouble with one of the wicks. After I had lit both candles but before I had said the blessing, one of them went out. Since I had not yet said the blessing I figured it would be okay to light it again. Correct?

Now, if I had said the blessing I would not be able to light it again but would have to leave it alone.
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Debbie B.

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PostSubject: Shabbat candle lighting, blessing, and the start of Shabbat   Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:54 pm

Chabad says that Shabbat starts for the one lighting as soon as the candles are lit so that it is even forbidden for that person to blow out the match. Perhaps for that reason, I have noticed that many of our observant Conservative and Orthodox friends tend to shake out the match rather than blowing it out---a kind of doing of an action with a "shinui" (with a "change", to do a prohibited action in a way that is different from every day). Come to think of it, I've picked up the habit of shaking out the match too, but I just blow it out if a shake doesn't do the trick. Anyway, I think a single Chabad Jew might not re-light the second candle if it goes out before the blessing is said. (But they usually have big families, so see the solution below.)

I'm no rabbi, and I'm observant Conservative, not Orthodox, but I believe that if a Jew lights candles before or at the "Shabbat candle lighting time" (usually taken to be 18 minutes before sundown on Friday or 40 min before in Jerusalem), then Shabbat starts for that person upon the completion of the blessing. I would think that it is related to the reason that the blessing is not said before lighting, because lighting candles is forbidden once Shabbat starts. And you traditionally cover your eyes after lighting and while saying the blessing so as not to see the lights until the blessing is complete.

So in my home, if a Shabbat candle goes out before the blessing is said then we just re-light the candle. Of course, it's better to hold the match to the wick long enough to make sure it has really caught, but I'm pretty sure that we've had cases just like yours and we just re-lit the candle before reciting the blessing. But we also sometimes light candles somewhat after the technical beginning of Shabbat particularly when the days are really short in the winter (and candle lighting can be as early as 4pm in Chicago), whereas strictly speaking, Halachah forbids the lighting of Shabbat candles once the latest time for lighting has passed. I know it's a bit of a cop out to use this excuse, but "we're not Orthodox".

Note also that if a person lights candles and says the blessings early and then another person comes into the house and has not yet said the Shabbat blessing, it is permitted for the other person to continue to do "work" ("melachah") up until s/he makes their own Shabbat or it becomes the time for Shabbat, whichever comes first, even while the other person who lit candles is forbidden from work in the same house at the same time. (And this is true even for strict Halachic interpretations of Shabbat.) So if a Shabbat candle goest out before the blessing is said, even in a very observant household, if there is another person, that other person could re-light the candle because it is not Shabbat for them yet since they did not light the candles or see them lit and hear the blessing.
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:36 am

Okay, now this past Shabbat one of my candles holders broke while my candles were lit. I jumped up really quick and blew it out because it was a large part of the side. Very strange but I imagine that won't be one of those things that happens more than once or twice. They were a gift so I'm pretty bummed.


Last edited by Dena on Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mychal

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:21 pm

I have also heard that Shabbat doesn't start untilt the blessing is said--meaning it's okay to extinguish your match or starter candle after you light the Shabbat candles, but before you say the blessing.

If you want the Orthodox position (which also works for Conservative; if Reform, why worry about it?), try AskMoses.com. You can get a free answer there from a rabbi.

Instructions on Aish.com said that it's okay if your candle sputters and goes out before it burns down; the lighting (not the keeping lit) is all you have to do.

You are always okay to blow out a candle that's fallen over, since that's a fire risk, and you are allowed to put out a fire on Shabbat if there is any risk to human life.
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Dena

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:44 pm

Mychal wrote:
I have also heard that Shabbat doesn't start untilt the blessing is said--meaning it's okay to extinguish your match or starter candle after you light the Shabbat candles, but before you say the blessing.


Yeah, that is the what I've gotten from my research so far. I figure it was fine.


Mychal wrote:
Instructions on Aish.com said that it's okay if your candle sputters and goes out before it burns down; the lighting (not the keeping lit) is all you have to do.

But I love to look at them while their lit so if I can re-light before the blessing I'll do it. Very Happy

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Debbie B.

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:19 pm

This past Shabbat one of the candles which is the kind that sits in a glass holder and liquifies, went out about an hour after lighting. Before I noticed what he was doing, my husband tried to re-light it and got a scolding from my 17-year old daughter for violating Shabbat. He's a Jew by birth, but grew up in an only semi-observant Conservative home.
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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:38 pm

I just googled havdalah candles and after much research finally found an answer if they can be re used. I thought they were so expensive for being used once, had no idea they can be used forever. During the times I have been present in a Havdalah service, I seen them put it out in wine, i found out why again on google. But how can you re light the havdalah candle if its put out in wine? Is that safe? And also I cannot find any where is the spices can be re used too or have to be thrown out and fresh ones in? Does any one have a suggestion on how they celebrated this tradition before they converted, as Noahides we have to do things differently. Thanks study
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:06 pm

For havdalah we re use the candles and the spice box is passed around for all to smell and the spices are re used too.

We did havdalah as non Jews just as we do as Jews. I have several books on Jewish rituals and how they are done that I use.

I have the Complete How to Handbook for Jewish Living that I use and it is easy to use. Much of what I learned was by being part of a community and actively engaged in going to services and in their adult learning programs. My children also helped me learn as they would bring things home from Hebrew school.

Becoming Jewish is done by baby steps. Don't worry about doing it all but adding it a bit at a time.

Here are 2 urls for the service:

http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/havdalah.htm


http://www.hillel.org/jewish/rituals/shabbat/havdalah_ritual.htm
The blessing over the wine
Wine was always considered special and it is a way that we signal that this ceremony has great significance. Just as we bring in the Sabbath with wine when we say "Kiddush" so, too, we leave the Sabbath with wine as well. The verse in Proverbs says, "Wine will gladden the hearts of humanity."

Lift the cup of wine, say this blessing, but don't drink from the cup. Put the cup down.
Baruch atah, Adonai, Elohaynu melech ha'olam, boray pri hagafen.
Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, Creator of the fruit of the vine.

The Blessing over spices
There is a Talmudic tradition that every Jew is given an extra soul on the Sabbath, and when the Sabbath is finished that extra soul is removed. The spices, according to some opinions, are savored to revive us from the loss of the extra soul.

Lift the spices, say this blessing and sniff the spices.
Baruch atah, Adonai, Elohaynu melech ha'olam, boray minay vesamim.
Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, Creator of the different spices.

The blessing over the torch
The Talmud stipulates that the Havdalah candle must have at least more than one wick and must be a torch. A bright fire is required which symbolizes the distinction between the upper and lower worlds. The illumination of the upper world is a world of light. Shabbat, which is a gateway to the spiritual world, is also a world of light. The days of the week are considered to be a part of the material world and is fueled by fire, hence the bright fire which brings us back to the mundane days of the week. It is customary to look at the back of one's hand when reciting the blessing over fire to symbolize that now, we are dealing with the material world, the superficial world and not the inside of the hand which symbolizes the inside world that is hidden during the days of the week and only witnessed on the Sabbath.

Look at the candle, say the blessing, raise your hand to the light of the Havdalah candle, then curl your fingers over your palm and look at the light as it is reflected off your fingernails and then at the shadow cast by your fingers across your palm.
Baruch atah, Adonai, Elohaynu melech ha'olam, boray me'oray ha'aysh.
Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, Creator of the fire's lights.

The Havdalah blessing
This blessing not only distinguishes between the Sabbath and the rest of the week, but uses this distinction to symbolize other important distinctions: The sacred and profane, and light and darkness. We live in a world of opposites. During this ceremony we are acutely aware of the tensions between those worlds and we acknowledge the pain of transition and the opportunity that both worlds offer.

Pick up the cup of wine and recite the following blessings.
Baruch atah, Adonai, Elohaynu melech ha'olam, hamavdil
Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, who separates
bayn kodesh lechol
between the holy and the profane;
bayn or lechoshech
between the light and dark;
bayn Yisra'el la'amim
between Israel and the other nations;
bayn yom ha'shevi'i leshayshet yemay hama'aseh.
between the seventh day and the six days of the week.

Baruch atah, Adonai, hamavdil bayn kodesh lechol.
Blessed are You, God, who separates between the holy and the profane.

Now drink the cup of wine, leaving enough to use to extinguish the flame.
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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:41 pm

Thanks, I know we are studying beyond what is required of us, but its like finding your soul mate...you want to know EVERYTHING there is to know. I may be studying alot but certain things don't get answered right away, it may be in a separate Tractate to complete the answers. Torah is not specific and google could only do so much. I have books for just about everything except modern day expectations. I have too much in my brain right now and can't remember what I learned about this stuff. We plan on going back and re reading everything, but this time things will make sense because we have grown in knowledge. Like this for example, a few months ago it was not important because I could not even say it correctly (Havdalah) much less know what it was. Now after I have seen it done a few times I want to know more. I remember you cannot use opened or previously used wine for Shabbat...but can you use Shabbat left over wine for Havdalah?
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esf

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:14 pm

Bee, I think you're getting way too caught up with all the detail, and missing the woods for the trees. Instead of reading reading Talmud, I think you'd be better off going to some community events.. I seem to remember you don't live in a very Jewish area, but there must be something you can participate in.
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:19 pm

Bee wrote:
Thanks, I know we are studying beyond what is required of us, but its like finding your soul mate...you want to know EVERYTHING there is to know. I may be studying alot but certain things don't get answered right away, it may be in a separate Tractate to complete the answers. Torah is not specific and google could only do so much. I have books for just about everything except modern day expectations. I have too much in my brain right now and can't remember what I learned about this stuff. We plan on going back and re reading everything, but this time things will make sense because we have grown in knowledge. Like this for example, a few months ago it was not important because I could not even say it correctly (Havdalah) much less know what it was. Now after I have seen it done a few times I want to know more. I remember you cannot use opened or previously used wine for Shabbat...but can you use Shabbat left over wine for Havdalah?


Because I have kids we use kosher grape juice, not wine. When I do buy wine I get kosher wine from Israel that is sold at Wegmans. We do use what is left over from Shabbat for havdalah.
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:30 pm

esf wrote:
Bee, I think you're getting way too caught up with all the detail, and missing the woods for the trees. Instead of reading reading Talmud, I think you'd be better off going to some community events.. I seem to remember you don't live in a very Jewish area, but there must be something you can participate in.


I agree! We learn by doing, not just by reading. One of the most important we will do as Jews is be part of a community. One of the things I did was to become active in a community. This was the community that saw me become Jewish in their midst. It is about learning and doing. My area is not very Jewish but we do have several communities and I have taken part in activities in all of them. I have gone to services with the Renewal community, am a member of an unaffiliated community and this year joined a Reform Shul. I go to Conservative services sometimes. If you attend different communities you will learn more about the other movements in Judaism. I believe it is important for Jews to have a real understanding of the other movements.

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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:47 pm

esf wrote:
Bee, I think you're getting way too caught up with all the detail, and missing the woods for the trees. Instead of reading reading Talmud, I think you'd be better off going to some community events.. I seem to remember you don't live in a very Jewish area, but there must be something you can participate in.

I know I know sorry! I can't help it, you're not the only one that tells me that :-(
I have always been so rigid, believe it or not I have improved. I have been to certain community events but had no clue what was being said or done. Gd willing I will be attending the shul my husband goes to, they have invited us to have shabbos with them in their homes. My husband tells me all their conversations and customs that he see's or learns. The good thing is that there are females allowed in the Torah classes. I have already shopped for modest clothing and have some head coverings in case I am asked to wear one. But we are not near a community where we can attend regularly and the one we go to on occasion in the city is a reform, very friendly and welcoming people but they have different observances and we lean more to Orthodox or Modern Orthodox. I am one of those people that have to do it by the book and it takes work for me to be well rounded. My husband is so good at that and even he tells me not to focus too much on the literal or legalistic aspects of Judaism...basically to chill out. I see others that have such calmness and ease about Judaism and I want that too. I think I am trying to prove I am worthy or something I don't know...I guess thats a mental issue. I get so fascinated by even the slightest concept because everything Jewish people do as traditions have a very deep meaning behind it and when I discover the reasoning behind it I just feel like i discovered a planet. You know that annoying toddler stage where the kid keeps asking, "why...why?" Yup, thats me.
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esf

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:04 pm

Do you have any Jewish friends? Maybe you could ask them how they do things, even if they are more liberal-leaning than you, you might still find some interesting answers.

Why does your husband go to synagogue, but not you?

Your enthusiasm is infectious!
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Bee

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:40 am

I have only online Jewish friends Wink and Smile yeah I said online. I have to stalk Jewish people in Austin at HEB farwest if I want to catch a glimpse of one...even then they might be messies!!!! How rude would it be if I stopped one and asked for documents or a ketubah? The reason I have not attended with my husband is because he is in another state where there are literally pages filled with shuls and congregations. He didnt know at first if I could attend classes or services there, it does have a separate area for women but coed for Torah/Talmud classes which did confuse him. He was expecting segregation for the classes. He asked if I could attend and they said of course. Yesterday they invited us to their home for Shabbos. I am still in Texas, he got rescheduled so I postponed my flight to two or three weeks from now. I have a function here next month so I am busy organizing a tea party...the kind with scones, feathered hats and marmalade.
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Debbie B.

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PostSubject: Re: When the flame goes out   Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:28 pm

Bee wrote:
I just googled havdalah candles and after much research finally found an answer if they can be re used. I thought they were so expensive for being used once, had no idea they can be used forever. During the times I have been present in a Havdalah service, I seen them put it out in wine, i found out why again on google. But how can you re light the havdalah candle if its put out in wine? Is that safe?
Most Havdalah candles last for several months, if used weekly for the ritual. I did once buy a cheap one that was "made in China" and regretted it because it burned fast and dripped a lot. We put ours out in wine by first pouring a little wine into the glass plate (made in Israel, and a gift from friends :) ) that we use under the lit candle to catch drips, and then smothering the flame in the liquid. There is plenty of time for the liquid to dry so that you can light the candle again the next week. Why wouldn't it be safe?

Bee wrote:
And also I cannot find any where is the spices can be re used too or have to be thrown out and fresh ones in?
You can certainly re-use the spices. The spices we have in a little olive wood box that says "besamim" (spices in Hebrew) have been in that box for many years. But we can still smell a scent, so we haven't felt the need to change them. You can use any sweet-smelling thing, although I've seen bottles in Judaica stores of some kind of spice just for the purpose. [/quote]

Bee wrote:
I remember you cannot use opened or previously used wine for Shabbat...but can you use Shabbat left over wine for Havdalah?
Where did you see or hear about not using previously opened wine for Shabbat? I've never heard that. In fact, the opposite is true: some very strictly observant Jews worry that there might be a problem with opening a bottle on Shabbat (since it might be considered to be "making a new vessel'), so they make sure to open the bottle before Shabbat. Maybe you are thinking about the fact that the challah loaves must be whole.

As for using wine left from Shabbat for Havdalah, my family usually does this. I think if anything it would be more appropriate since it ties Havdalah to Shabbat.

A funny note about Havdalah in my house: One day I was puzzled by why there is a smoke smudge above one corner of our dining room table. We had the ceiling painted before we moved in (almost 14 years ago), we don't allow any smoking in our home, and it is the wrong place for candles that might be set on the table. My daughter laughed that I didn't realize that of course it is due to the Havdalah candles which burn strongly and put up a lot of smoke. Note that there is no such smudge above the place that we usually light Shabbat candles even though we use candles that burn for six hours, but those burn much more cleanly.
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