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Dena

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PostSubject: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Jewishness is not a belief, a feeling, a conviction or a lifestyle. It is a state of being - Rabbi Aron Moss

The quote is in reference to a born Jew who considers himself an atheist, married a non-Jew and isn't at all religious. What do you think of the statement? Do you think it applies to converts, just born Jews, both or neither? I'm asking for your opinion, not what you think the author intended.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sat May 26, 2012 11:49 pm

tamar wrote:
I believe if noahides want to be a religion then they need to be seen separately from Judaism. To follow the 7 noahide laws and live that way is a path, but it is not a Jewish path. It should be separate from Judaism and that is just my opinion.

I don't fear G-d, and I am not here to learn about the noahides. I want to be among those on the journey to Judaism or who have become Jewish. I want to learn and grow in being Jewish.

I believe those who are drawn to Judaism should become Jewish and join the Jewish people.

Again we don't want to be a religion or be separate from Judaism...Judaism is our religion but as non=converts, also known as Righteous Gentiles, Ger Toshav, Gd Fearers, Torah Observant etc. Yes 7 laws but they are broken into subcategories that are listed within the 316 positive and negative commandments. I really am not trying to teach you about Noahides, that was not my intention but I just wanted to give you some insight because of your opinion. So I will not go further on it...unless it warrants it of course. Also fearing Gd is a whole different topic and a good one to discuss if you are willing to open a thread on it. I am curious to understand how others see Hashem and why just like what Dena wrote about the soul. That topic blew my mind and also what was written about the possible Jewish soul reincarnation. We all are here to learn and grow in Judaism and we all benefit from speaking freely as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sun May 27, 2012 12:02 am

Dena wrote:
Bee wrote:
how ever you chose to live with Judaism is how strong the relationship you have with Hashem.

I'm inclined to say I completely disagree with this idea. But then again my idea of having a relationship with God is obviously much different than yours and it's different than the Orthodox Jews too.

In light of what you have said here I am not sure how the non-existence of a soul changes anything? I would think one should be just as observant regardless of whether or not they have a soul?

I really have to think about this one Dena. I believe we have a soul without question but the idea of not having one is a fascinating thought. Don't know if I should thank you or not for provoking me to go outside of my bubble...its been on my mind for days now. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sun May 27, 2012 12:39 am

usuario wrote:
Noahidism IS Judaism. Noahides are non-Jews who believe in Judaism. They thus accept the authority of the Oral and Written Torah (but like Jewish women, are forbidden to study it except for the parts that pertain to them).
I belong to Noahide Nations (Noahide World Center) which is different from the Chabad organization two very distinctive groups. They are big on Noahides studying and not limiting Torah as Chabad does .

usuario wrote:
There is a machloket (dispute) in Jewish law as to whether Muslims, non-Trinitarian Christians, and other non-idolators count as Noahides if they only observe the 7 Noahide Laws out of their own sense of morality vs. out of belief that God commanded them.
I run from this topic and dare not ask it at a Noahide site...I raised eyebrows voicing my opinions on kabalah and found myself in quick sand. I\'ll Shut Up
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sun May 27, 2012 12:06 pm

I think Orthodox rabbis have done a terrible job promoting the 7 Noahide Laws. Since most Orthodox rabbis are loathe to converting people, they always recommend that non-Jews be Noahides, and in fact if there is a particular aspect of Jewish law that you feel like you cannot keep, Noahidism is the only way to go if you believe in Orthodox Judaism. The problem is that Orthodox rabbis assign Noahides a very low priority, this stems from a belief that you should take care of Jewish spiritual needs prior to those of non-Jews:

Quote :
If you lend money to any of my people that are poor with you" [this teaches, if the choice lies between] a Jew and a non-Jew, a Jew has preference; the poor or the rich the poor takes precedence; your poor [i.e. your relatives] and the [general] poor of your town, your poor come first; the poor of your city and the poor of another town the poor of your own town have prior rights.
- Bava Metzia 71a

This is a quotation about tzedakah but I feel like Orthodox rabbis use it to justify leaving Noahides to their own devices. Outside of a few Noahide websites and a number of Chabad rabbis so small you can count them on one hand, there is very little spiritual support and counselling for Noahides. Although part of Orthodox Judaism, Noahidism is one of the only belief systems where its members are not allowed to be clergy.

With rising numbers of patrilineal Jews and people interested in Judaism, I think Orthodox rabbis ought to spend a larger amount of time with people they refuse to convert rather than leave them standing outside the door to Judaism and treating them like beggars on your doorstep.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Sun May 27, 2012 12:17 pm

usuario wrote:
I think Orthodox rabbis have done a terrible job promoting the 7 Noahide Laws. Since most Orthodox rabbis are loathe to converting people, they always recommend that non-Jews be Noahides, and in fact if there is a particular aspect of Jewish law that you feel like you cannot keep, Noahidism is the only way to go if you believe in Orthodox Judaism. The problem is that Orthodox rabbis assign Noahides a very low priority, this stems from a belief that you should take care of Jewish spiritual needs prior to those of non-Jews:

Quote :
If you lend money to any of my people that are poor with you" [this teaches, if the choice lies between] a Jew and a non-Jew, a Jew has preference; the poor or the rich the poor takes precedence; your poor [i.e. your relatives] and the [general] poor of your town, your poor come first; the poor of your city and the poor of another town the poor of your own town have prior rights.
- Bava Metzia 71a

This is a quotation about tzedakah but I feel like Orthodox rabbis use it to justify leaving Noahides to their own devices. Outside of a few Noahide websites and a number of Chabad rabbis so small you can count them on one hand, there is very little spiritual support and counselling for Noahides. Although part of Orthodox Judaism, Noahidism is one of the only belief systems where its members are not allowed to be clergy.

With rising numbers of patrilineal Jews and people interested in Judaism, I think Orthodox rabbis ought to spend a larger amount of time with people they refuse to convert rather than leave them standing outside the door to Judaism and treating them like beggars on your doorstep.

Orthodoxy is not the only stream of Judaism and the other movements do not leave patrilineal Jews on the doorstep. They are welcome to come in and change their status so they will be accepted by other movements. We need to stop giving orthodoxy the end word on who is a Jew.

Noahides need to take on their own movement and not allow orthodox Judaism to determine their movement.

Historically Judaism has a history of welcoming the convert and it was for our safety that we stopped welcoming the convert within the fold because it could mean a castrophe for our people if Christians wanted to become Jewish. We closed our doors to the non Jew and made it difficult to become Jewish.

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 3:59 am

usuario wrote:
I think Orthodox rabbis have done a terrible job promoting the 7 Noahide Laws. Since most Orthodox rabbis are loathe to converting people, they always recommend that non-Jews be Noahides, and in fact if there is a particular aspect of Jewish law that you feel like you cannot keep, Noahidism is the only way to go if you believe in Orthodox Judaism. The problem is that Orthodox rabbis assign Noahides a very low priority, this stems from a belief that you should take care of Jewish spiritual needs prior to those of non-Jews:

I disagree, Orthodoxy is not the only way to go for Noahides. Noahides can live like any other Jewish groups that have their own version of morality. There are Jews who actually live like Noahides and Noahides who live like Jews. In my opinion, its not so much that they loathe converting people, its trying to weed out those that want to convert for alterior motives or those that will cause more harm than good to their survival. Orthodoxy has alot to sort out, and its biggest threat is not so much the converts...but within Judaism itself. We are all in this together for the sake of heaven and this is something us Noahides understand. We are not gatekeepers we are more like a bridge.

Quote :
This is a quotation about tzedakah but I feel like Orthodox rabbis use it to justify leaving Noahides to their own devices. Outside of a few Noahide websites and a number of Chabad rabbis so small you can count them on one hand, there is very little spiritual support and counselling for Noahides. Although part of Orthodox Judaism, Noahidism is one of the only belief systems where its members are not allowed to be clergy.

I hope this was not given to you by a Orthodox Rabbi towards Noahides, I do not expect one to use this as their logic....I would expect a Talmudic reference (any of the ones written about dealing with Noahides). Granted there are many Rabbi's who have voiced their negative opinion in regards to Noahides and I cannot say whether or not they choose to not be well informed. Especially since Rabbi Eliashiv is one of our supporters. I can count my Orthodox, Charedi Rabbi's with two hands and some toes who have great love and support for us. Yes clergy may or may not be allowed, don't understand why there would be a need since we are not a separate religion...but they do support us having leaders to keep us united and in touch with Rabbi's so that it does not become a cult like religious sect.

Quote :
With rising numbers of patrilineal Jews and people interested in Judaism, I think Orthodox rabbis ought to spend a larger amount of time with people they refuse to convert rather than leave them standing outside the door to Judaism and treating them like beggars on your doorstep.
I cannot comment on this because I lack the experience. Should that be the case I can't say I agree or disagree, just that I can see both sides.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 4:38 am

Quote :
Orthodoxy is not the only stream of Judaism and the other movements do not leave patrilineal Jews on the doorstep. They are welcome to come in and change their status so they will be accepted by other movements. We need to stop giving orthodoxy the end word on who is a Jew.

Noahides need to take on their own movement and not allow orthodox Judaism to determine their movement.

Historically Judaism has a history of welcoming the convert and it was for our safety that we stopped welcoming the convert within the fold because it could mean a castrophe for our people if Christians wanted to become Jewish. We closed our doors to the non Jew and made it difficult to become Jewish.

Tamar what is a Jew? What is Judaism? How is a Jew different than a goyim? What defines a secular person and an observant one? What guidelines would you use to make sure your belief system is Judaism? What are the reasons that an Orthodox society would reject your view on who is a Jew?
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 11:02 am

Bee wrote:
Quote :
Orthodoxy is not the only stream of Judaism and the other movements do not leave patrilineal Jews on the doorstep. They are welcome to come in and change their status so they will be accepted by other movements. We need to stop giving orthodoxy the end word on who is a Jew.

Noahides need to take on their own movement and not allow orthodox Judaism to determine their movement.

Historically Judaism has a history of welcoming the convert and it was for our safety that we stopped welcoming the convert within the fold because it could mean a castrophe for our people if Christians wanted to become Jewish. We closed our doors to the non Jew and made it difficult to become Jewish.

Tamar what is a Jew? What is Judaism? How is a Jew different than a goyim? What defines a secular person and an observant one? What guidelines would you use to make sure your belief system is Judaism? What are the reasons that an Orthodox society would reject your view on who is a Jew?

Bee you know what a Jew is, a person born to a Jewish mother or someone converted to Judaism through the rituals of conversion. A Jew is different then a goy because they are part of the Jewish people.

As to orthodoxy's view on who is a Jew, I am a Jew and the movements I am active in and those I want to be a part of accept me. I would not want to be a part of orthodoxy so their views don't matter to me.

I don't think they should be teaching non Jews and I certainly don't think they should be determining a movement that is not a part of Judaism.

Noahides should be determining their own movement. There are only 7 noahide laws.

Being a noahide is not the same thing as being a Jew and the rabbis should not be involved in your movement. But they want to have control of your movement so they can determine how it grows and be the gatekeepers.

So they decide who is a noahide as they want to determine who is a Jew.

So now there is a 2 tiered system of Jew and goy and the orthodox have developed a 2nd class group of people who are outside of Judaism yet are following rules set up by orthodox rabbis.

Here is another view on Noahides that I found on an orthodox site that actually espouses reaching out to non Jews and promotes that noahides actually become Jews instead of being on the outside.

http://tjint.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=139:dont-be-a-noachide-be-jewish-by-rabbi-asher-meza&catid=43:articles&Itemid=352

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 1:00 pm

http://noahidenations.com/index.php/noahide-education/academy-of-shem-a-eber/articles/noahide-laws/264-noahide-laws-what-are-noahides-allowed-to-study

The article you posted has no references I am posting one that does. I am not here to advocate Noahidism but to clarify that it is a choice if you are not wanting to convert and acknowledge that many eventually do. Those who seek Hashem, believe in the Oneness of Hashem, in His Torahs have options. The article you posted Tamar makes it seem like only Jews are first class, I very much doubt that was the purpose of Mt. Sinai. The Jewish people have a special task that creates a balance in this universe by keeping Torah. To guard and protect and to be a light all nations not just Jewish ones but to all nations.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 1:51 pm

Bee you absolutely are advocating the noahide nations to the extent that when a rabbi came on this site and gave information and questioned some of your views he was ignored. A Jewish rabbi who is knowledgable about Judaism.

Anyway I don't want to argue with you I just simply do not accept that noahide nation is connected to Judaism. If you are interested in the path towards Judaism and eventually becoming Jewish then you should be a part of a Jewish community and learn about Judaism that way.

This was from the website Torah Judaism International: http://tjint.org/

This is the link for the article: http://tjint.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=139:dont-be-a-noachide-be-jewish-by-rabbi-asher-meza&catid=43:articles&Itemid=352

Don’t be a Noachide, Be Jewish by Rabbi Asher Meza
Don’t be a Noachide, Be Jewish
By Asher Meza

Don’t be a Noachide, Be Jewish.

The simple fact that any non Jew through conversion could become a full Jew means that being a Ben/Bat Noach is not the highest attainable level available to non Jews.
So I am here to encourage you to reach higher.
In that spirit Jews should not offer anything less than the full fellowship we enjoy with the creator to others, just like we did in the past.

I will try to explain:
1. Why the term Noachide was never meant to be a permanent status by those who had the ability to become full Jews.
2. How the concept was actually created as a yoke for non Jewish travelers in Israel, and as a brand that the Nations of this world will wear during the times of Moshiach when conversion will cease.

What is a Noachide?
Often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides,” they are people who adhere to a set of seven laws which, according to the Talmud, were given by G-d to Noah as a binding for all humanity. This belief teaches that any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured a place in the world to come.
The seven laws listed by the Talmud are the:
1. Prohibition against Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition against Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition against Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition against Sexual immorality: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition against Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name.
6. Prohibition against Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up effective Courts of Justice to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.
If you read the 7 laws carefully you will realize that they failed to mention that Noachides above all, must initially submit to Rabbinic Law first and foremost to even know that these 7 laws exist and are binding. This is because the concept of being a Noachide or even the existence of the Sheva Mitvos (Seven Laws) does appear in Biblical sources.

Also being that there are Rabbinic prohibitions against non Jews reading Rabbinic writings, the idea that non Jews would embrace the 7 Mitzvas and be satisfied is difficult to ponder.

Can one imagine how a Rabbi could possibly present these laws in an enthusiastic way to a non Jew which would make him leave his current beliefs.


Therefore, ideally the only possible way to increase or even maintain the number of Noahides is by enacting Judicial edicts like those for Gerim Toshavim (Resident Aliens), which non Jews adopted as temporary oaths while living in the Holy land (Avodah Zarah 64b). The other, as I mentioned, would be as a brand on the Nations who failed to acknowledge the Oneness of Israel’s G-d during the days of the Messiah (Zechariah 14:16).


Who ever said it was hard to be Jewish didn’t think about being a Noachide.
When Noachides study scripture they have to acknowledge that about 98% of all the promises and blessings found in the Tanack do not apply to them.
Furthermore, Noachides even have to consult with a Rabbi to inquire on those that do.
Honestly, who would want to become a Noachide when they can become a full Jew?

Noachides are Second Class citizens in the Kingdom.


How So:
They are not counted in the Jewish Prayer Minyan.
No Jew would have their children marry them.
Biblically, Jews can’t eat with them.
Jews must charge them interest on Loans.
For those familiar with Talmudic edicts on all non Jews, you know the list goes on and on.




So why all the confusion?
The erroneous idea of modern Noachideship stems from a neo-rabbinic belief that Jews never sought Gentiles for conversion.

With the horrendous history of Jewish suffering we really should sympathize with those Rabbis.

The Truth is that Judaism used to seek converts.

Why would a nation that sought converts in the past be interested in having non Jews remain Noachides?

Why was Israel Given the Torah.
G-d, not being a respecter of Men, gave Israel the Torah so that they might spread it.
To be a light unto the nations.
Only Torah ultimately can perfect the world.
G-d would not have given his moral blue print for global restoration to a people he knew would not try to spread it.

For that very reason the Torah begins with creation, not revelation. The first Man created was not Jewish. The creator was concerned with the morality of all people.


So if you are hungry for a more intense journey with our creator don’t limit yourself to just 7, but reach for his full Torah.
Bee wrote:
http://noahidenations.com/index.php/noahide-education/academy-of-shem-a-eber/articles/noahide-laws/264-noahide-laws-what-are-noahides-allowed-to-study

The article you posted has no references I am posting one that does. I am not here to advocate Noahidism but to clarify that it is a choice if you are not wanting to convert and acknowledge that many eventually do. Those who seek Hashem, believe in the Oneness of Hashem, in His Torahs have options. The article you posted Tamar makes it seem like only Jews are first class, I very much doubt that was the purpose of Mt. Sinai. The Jewish people have a special task that creates a balance in this universe by keeping Torah. To guard and protect and to be a light all nations not just Jewish ones but to all nations.
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 2:03 pm

Bee wrote:
http://noahidenations.com/index.php/noahide-education/academy-of-shem-a-eber/articles/noahide-laws/264-noahide-laws-what-are-noahides-allowed-to-study

The article you posted has no references I am posting one that does. I am not here to advocate Noahidism but to clarify that it is a choice if you are not wanting to convert and acknowledge that many eventually do. Those who seek Hashem, believe in the Oneness of Hashem, in His Torahs have options. The article you posted Tamar makes it seem like only Jews are first class, I very much doubt that was the purpose of Mt. Sinai. The Jewish people have a special task that creates a balance in this universe by keeping Torah. To guard and protect and to be a light all nations not just Jewish ones but to all nations.

Your link is from the noahide nations and so for me is not a Jewish link. I am not interested in Jewish rabbis who supporting noahide nation and noahides. I feel strongly that they do a disservice in not helping those who are interested in Torah and Judaism to become Jews and part of the Jewish people.

The article I posted made it clear that there is a place for anyone who wants to be a part of the covenant. Why chose a religion that puts you on the outside as a non Jew when you could be part of this wonderful people.
It speaks of joining and being included.

What the rabbis who advocate being a noahide are doing is making you 2nd class. Telling you that you don't need to be Jewish that being a noahide is the next best thing and the way to go.

Judaism has a history of welcoming the stranger and bringing the non Jew into the fold.

But yes I believe that Judaism and Torah go together and I am suspicious of any organization or set of rabbis who instead of helping those who are interested in Judaism and may one day want to become Jewish Pushing a group that is outside of Judaism.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 5:11 pm

It was brought to my attention that Asher Meza is um..well..a bit strange. He's on his own out in left field at this point. Therefore, we may not want to link to his sites. Just a little FYI since it wasn't discussed here.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 5:18 pm

tamar wrote:

The article I posted made it clear that there is a place for anyone who wants to be a part of the covenant. Why chose a religion that puts you on the outside as a non Jew when you could be part of this wonderful people.

I would imagine it's because not everyone is ready to make the leap into Judaism. Perhaps they are married to someone who doesn't want to convert. Perhaps they do not have the money to relocate for the moment. I know you are not a huge fan of Orthodoxy but there are many people who believe not only is that the path for them but it's the truth. Therefore, opting for something else like Reform or Conservative is out of the question. Now, I myself am not a big fan of the Noahide thing but I can see why people would be drawn to it for a limited amount of time.

tamar wrote:
What the rabbis who advocate being a noahide are doing is making you 2nd class. Telling you that you don't need to be Jewish that being a noahide is the next best thing and the way to go.

I am not sure I am conformable with this wording. It almost sounds like you are saying Non-Jews are 2nd class citizens.

tamar wrote:
But yes I believe that Judaism and Torah go together and I am suspicious of any organization or set of rabbis who instead of helping those who are interested in Judaism and may one day want to become Jewish Pushing a group that is outside of Judaism.

I will be honest in that I think the Noahide movement is strange. I do. However, you have stated many times in this thread that it's outside of Judaism and should be completely separate. I don't see how that would be possible. It's based on the Torah and the Torah belongs to the Jewish people. Therefore, a complete separation would be impossible. You would essentially be asking a bunch of Non-Jews to go out on their own and make a religion with our Torah. I think that is a bad idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 8:02 pm

Dena wrote:
tamar wrote:

The article I posted made it clear that there is a place for anyone who wants to be a part of the covenant. Why chose a religion that puts you on the outside as a non Jew when you could be part of this wonderful people.

I would imagine it's because not everyone is ready to make the leap into Judaism. Perhaps they are married to someone who doesn't want to convert. Perhaps they do not have the money to relocate for the moment. I know you are not a huge fan of Orthodoxy but there are many people who believe not only is that the path for them but it's the truth. Therefore, opting for something else like Reform or Conservative is out of the question. Now, I myself am not a big fan of the Noahide thing but I can see why people would be drawn to it for a limited amount of time.

tamar wrote:
What the rabbis who advocate being a noahide are doing is making you 2nd class. Telling you that you don't need to be Jewish that being a noahide is the next best thing and the way to go.

I am not sure I am conformable with this wording. It almost sounds like you are saying Non-Jews are 2nd class citizens.

tamar wrote:
But yes I believe that Judaism and Torah go together and I am suspicious of any organization or set of rabbis who instead of helping those who are interested in Judaism and may one day want to become Jewish Pushing a group that is outside of Judaism.

I will be honest in that I think the Noahide movement is strange. I do. However, you have stated many times in this thread that it's outside of Judaism and should be completely separate. I don't see how that would be possible. It's based on the Torah and the Torah belongs to the Jewish people. Therefore, a complete separation would be impossible. You would essentially be asking a bunch of Non-Jews to go out on their own and make a religion with our Torah. I think that is a bad idea.


I would like to say that I don't see non Jews as 2nd class, but I do think that the orthodox rabbis who want to be in control of the noahide nation and they are acting as gate keepers absolutely are setting up a situation of 2 classes of people.

Non Jews are encouraged to become Jews when they are interested in Torah and Judaism because they can become noahides.

I do accept that I am a part of the Jewish people and part of the covenant. I think those who are interested in Judaism should be a part of a Jewish community and learn from Jewish people about Judaism and then make a choice.

To be a part of a Jewish community, have Jewish friends, be a part of learning is how you go about this path.

I don't believe being part of the noahide nation and learning from orthodox rabbis who seem to want to keep folks out and act as gatekeepers.

This to me is setting up a 2 tiered system and saying you are good enough to be a noahide but you don't need to be Jewish.

Noahides are outside of Judaism in my view because they are not Jewish. The Torah does belong to the Jewish people and Noahides are not Jewish.

The Christians have taken part of our Hebrew Scriptures and added the New Testament and have their book.

The Noahides can do the same. If they want to have a Jewish understanding then come into the Jewish fold.

Honestly the Noahides need to make their way and decide how to be. Do they really want Orthodox rabbis to decide for them how to be noahide?
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 9:37 pm

I really am not "preaching" Noahidism but merely defending it because I live it. Just like you would defend your affiliation if its validity came to question. I much rather have conversations about Torah, Mishneh Torah,Midrash, Talmud or a recipe exchange. I gave you our website that is sponsored, written, supported, guided etc. by Orthodox, Charedi,Modern Jewish Rabbis, and their proof of scriptures. It would be different if it were goyim website but it is Jewish. If you cannot accept that than that is your right, if you chose an article written with an opinion and no proof than that is your right. There is a Rabbinic approach called the elements of debate when it comes to Talmudic discussions. The article you gave me has none...simply one man's opinion. My husband and I are taking our time, Noahidism is a bridge, we cannot live like idolitors and we cannot call ourselves Jews. There are issues that I am not sure of within Orthodoxy but it is what we best can relate to. I am in a state where I can grow, peel off layers and layers of years of christianity. I am grateful that there is a bridge where I can "defrag" my life. I love Judaism, I love the Sages, I love the Torah...I love when I study they come alive.
As far as the Rabbi here, I did not ignore him...I asked him many questions. I think I will have to revisit that thread to make sure I didn't ignore him. I have good communications with my own Rabbi's now, before I felt intimidated. I am one to keep quiet or withdrawn, but since I started classes I am more open. They go out of the way to make sure I am comfortable in asking questions and if not to email them.
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tamar

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 10:01 pm

Bee I am not trying to prove anything. Judaism has more then one opinion. Your site was a noahide nation site, not a Jewish site.

http://noahidenations.com/

http://noahidenations.com/index.php/noahide-education/academy-of-shem-a-eber/articles/noahide-laws/264-noahide-laws-what-are-noahides-allowed-to-study


I don't accept it as part of Judaism and that is my opinion. I don't see it as a bridge. I think the way to learn about Judaism and I don't just mean orthodoxy but all of Judaism is to live it in a Jewish way in a Jewish community among Jewish people. To understand all the diversity of all Jews.

To hear opinions of many many rabbis, not just orthodox rabbis. What I linked you was the reason this particular rabbi believes that there is an error to orthodox being mixed up with noahides. I don't need to prove anything. I think the need to prove is a very Christian outlook because Christianity believes in needing to prove the rightness.

I am not Jewish because it was proven to be right to me. It is just a way that I have found works for me and I am a Jewish because I was supposed to be Jewish. I would still be Jewish if tomorrow I decided I did not believe in G-d.






Bee wrote:
I really am not "preaching" Noahidism but merely defending it because I live it. Just like you would defend your affiliation if its validity came to question. I much rather have conversations about Torah, Mishneh Torah,Midrash, Talmud or a recipe exchange. I gave you our website that is sponsored, written, supported, guided etc. by Orthodox, Charedi,Modern Jewish Rabbis, and their proof of scriptures. It would be different if it were goyim website but it is Jewish. If you cannot accept that than that is your right, if you chose an article written with an opinion and no proof than that is your right. There is a Rabbinic approach called the elements of debate when it comes to Talmudic discussions. The article you gave me has none...simply one man's opinion. My husband and I are taking our time, Noahidism is a bridge, we cannot live like idolitors and we cannot call ourselves Jews. There are issues that I am not sure of within Orthodoxy but it is what we best can relate to. I am in a state where I can grow, peel off layers and layers of years of christianity. I am grateful that there is a bridge where I can "defrag" my life. I love Judaism, I love the Sages, I love the Torah...I love when I study they come alive.
As far as the Rabbi here, I did not ignore him...I asked him many questions. I think I will have to revisit that thread to make sure I didn't ignore him. I have good communications with my own Rabbi's now, before I felt intimidated. I am one to keep quiet or withdrawn, but since I started classes I am more open. They go out of the way to make sure I am comfortable in asking questions and if not to email them.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 10:28 pm

tamar wrote:


I think the way to learn about Judaism and I don't just mean orthodoxy but all of Judaism is to live it in a Jewish way in a Jewish community among Jewish people.

My understanding is that ideally that is how it should be done. The first Rabbi I ever spoke with from Orthodox. He and his wife said I was welcome to attend services. He personally did not have a lot of time though to teach me but since he was working with another person, thought we could study together. He was so busy and I really decided I wanted to convert so after two visits I did not go back. And that is probably one of the issues. Rabbis are very busy people. Trying to work with non-Jews too would just be too much. I think though, that Bee is working with some Rabbis? And Bee, you husband is attending a congregation in Baltimore, is he not?
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Tue May 29, 2012 11:17 pm

That is correct Dena.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Wed May 30, 2012 12:59 am

Bee wrote:
That is correct Dena.

That's what I thought.
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searchinmyroots

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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Wed May 30, 2012 7:51 pm

I guess a good question might be, what does the Hebrew Bible say about Jews and non-Jews?

Does it not say that the Jews are to be the teachers to the world of G-d's ways? Does it not embrace those who are not Jews as equals?

Didn't King Solomon when dedicating the Temple say it is a place for all nations and even made 70 sacrifices to represent them?

What would be the reason for G-d to tell the Jewish people that they are to be the teachers to the world? I don't think it mentions that one must be Jewish to live by G-d's ways, although there are certain laws that do only pertain to the Jewish people.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Wed May 30, 2012 8:23 pm

searchinmyroots wrote:
I guess a good question might be, what does the Hebrew Bible say about Jews and non-Jews?

Does it not say that the Jews are to be the teachers to the world of G-d's ways? Does it not embrace those who are not Jews as equals?

Didn't King Solomon when dedicating the Temple say it is a place for all nations and even made 70 sacrifices to represent them?

What would be the reason for G-d to tell the Jewish people that they are to be the teachers to the world? I don't think it mentions that one must be Jewish to live by G-d's ways, although there are certain laws that do only pertain to the Jewish people.

We are a light to the world. One can believe in G-d and be monotheistic and not need to be Jewish. One does not need convert to have a place in the world to come.

That being said I personally don't even know if I believe in a world to come and put my efforts into tikkun olam and acting in just ways and doing what I can to make this world a better place.

I constantly struggle with how I view G-d.

I believe that to understand G-d as a monotheist does not mean you need to become Jewish or even study the Jewish texts or Hebrew Bible.

My parents are UU and they are as Jewish in their outlook as any Jew I know. They taught me about ethical monotheism and how to be a mensch.


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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Wed May 30, 2012 11:37 pm

tamar wrote:


I constantly struggle with how I view G-d.


Me too.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:12 pm

I have trouble with the concept of a "cultural Jew." Judaism is the product and the outcome, both, of a four-thousand year old specifically religious tradition. Just because a given Jew is not observant, rejects the Torah, or doesn't believe in God, does not mean that they are not deeply affected by religious aspects of Judaism--perhaps more than they would like to be--because you can't separate out those religious aspects. You can only reject them on an individual basis. Cultural Jews may choose not to be religiously practicing Jews, but for them to be truly secular, cultural Jews would be for them, simply, not to be Jews at all.

One very simple example: a child born to a Jewish mother eschews all religious aspects of Judaism and lives a secular life in adulthood as an avowed atheist. But it's religious law--specifically the law of matrilineality--that made this person Jewish in the first place. Were such a person to completely disavow all religious aspects of Judaism would be for them to be unable to claim their Judaism at all, because they were only ever officially Jewish by dint of Jewish religious law. On these grounds, to me, cultural or atheistic Judaism is the real "pick-and-choose" Judaism. You want to be "Jewish," but you don't want to have a relationship with the religious civilization that made you Jewish in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:21 pm

The Jews I know who are atheist absolutely are cultural Jews and that is how they see themselves. They are Jews because they were born to a Jewish mother. They are secular but they absolutely see themselves as Jewish, and part of the Jewish people.

I don't see the problem with that. To be Jewish is to be part of a people and part of a religion. If you disavow yourself of the religious part you are still part of the people and still Jewish.

mikedoyleblogger wrote:
I have trouble with the concept of a "cultural Jew." Judaism is the product and the outcome, both, of a four-thousand year old specifically religious tradition. Just because a given Jew is not observant, rejects the Torah, or doesn't believe in God, does not mean that they are not deeply affected by religious aspects of Judaism--perhaps more than they would like to be--because you can't separate out those religious aspects. You can only reject them on an individual basis. Cultural Jews may choose not to be religiously practicing Jews, but for them to be truly secular, cultural Jews would be for them, simply, not to be Jews at all.

One very simple example: a child born to a Jewish mother eschews all religious aspects of Judaism and lives a secular life in adulthood as an avowed atheist. But it's religious law--specifically the law of matrilineality--that made this person Jewish in the first place. Were such a person to completely disavow all religious aspects of Judaism would be for them to be unable to claim their Judaism at all, because they were only ever officially Jewish by dint of Jewish religious law. To me, cultural or atheistic Judaism is the real "pick-and-choose" Judaism.
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PostSubject: Re: Jewishness is a State of Being   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:24 pm

tamar wrote:
The Jews I know who are atheist absolutely are cultural Jews and that is how they see themselves. They are Jews because they were born to a Jewish mother. They are secular but they absolutely see themselves as Jewish, and part of the Jewish people.

I don't see the problem with that. To be Jewish is to be part of a people and part of a religion. If you disavow yourself of the religious part you are still part of the people and still Jewish.

To me, the problem is that it's hypocritical. Such a person allegedly disavows all religious aspects of Judaism--except that, very conveniently, they don't. Because as I said, to truly do that would mean giving up the halacha by dint of which they're Jewish in the first place. It's a little like saying anyone can become Jew just by saying they're a Jew without the need to convert in some halachic manner. I agree, Judaism has religious and peoplehood aspects. But I do not agree at all that you can have one without the other.
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